Fire 1.3 scheint da zu sein ...

By Urs Maier Date 2010-05-31 12:51

paß auf Benno,

es ist ganz einfach: Norman Schmidt hat mittlerweile eingesehen, daß es nicht gut ankommt, mit mit clones geld verdienen zu wollen (xyclOps).
deswegen hat er sich mal ein paar monate hingesetzt, schnell eine engine auf augenhöhe von rybka entwickelt und bietet diese - nun geleutert - gratis an.

daß diese engine im direkten vergleich mit rybka3 einen kleinen vorteil zu haben scheint, ist schnell verständlich, wenn man das zeitmanagement ansieht. da die engine aus rybka hervorgeht, kann man ponderhits speziell gegen rybka so timen, daß am ende fast ein bedenkzeitverhältnis von 2:1 steht.
das ist der hauptgrund für die paar elo vorsprung im direkten vergleich. als analyseengine siehts natürlich wieder anders aus.

wie weit es mit seinen programmierfähigkeiten her ist, sieht man ja

By Michael Waesch Date 2010-05-31 12:54

[quote="Urs Maier"]
... da die engine aus rybka hervorgeht ...[/quote]

Und dafür hast du natürlich auch stichhaltige Beweise, nicht wahr?

Mike

By Urs Maier Date 2010-05-31 12:58

das kann jeder selbst nachprüfen

By Ralf Badera Date 2010-05-31 13:33

Hallo Urs,
das NEIN hast Du interessant formuliert - die Posse wird immer größer.

MfG,
Ralf

By Michael Waesch Date 2010-05-31 13:37

Dann gilt wohl heutzutage nicht mehr, daß den Beweis derjenige zu erbringen hat, der die Anschuldigung erhebt, sondern der, der sie liest/hört, soll deine Arbeit machen?

Putzig!

Mike

By Urs Maier Date 2010-05-31 13:41

solche trolle würde ich wie gesagt gleich mit der digitalen guillotine...

By Michael Waesch Date 2010-05-31 13:50

Das soll deine Antwort sein, nachdem du aufgefordert wurdest, deine Anschuldigungen zu belegen? Wenn du keine Argumente mehr hast, wirst du ausfällig und dann erwartest du auch noch, daß andere denjenigen für dich aus dem Weg räumen, der aufgezeigt hat, wie nichtig deine "Argumente" sind?

Da kann dich das "digitale Fallbeil", daß du immer wieder bemüßigst, auch mal ganz schnell selbst treffen.

Mike

By Daniel Mehrmann (CSS-Forum) Date 2010-06-01 10:34

Hallo Urs,

[quote="Urs Maier"]solche trolle würde ich wie gesagt gleich mit der digitalen guillotine...[/quote]

für diese Aussage erhälst du von der Moderation eine Verwarnung.

Desweiteren werden deine Beiträge in den nächsten 4 Wochen
überwacht b.z.w müssen erst durch die Moderation freigeschaltet werden.

Für dich selbst ändert sich beim Schreiben von Beiträgen nichts und auch der
Status im Forum (PN, Benachrichtigungen,....) läuft normal weiter.

Gruß
Daniel und Thomas

By Norman Schmidt Date 2010-05-31 23:29 Edited 2010-05-31 23:38

[quote="Urs Maier"]
paß auf Benno,

es ist ganz einfach: Norman Schmidt hat mittlerweile eingesehen, daß es nicht gut ankommt, mit mit clones geld verdienen zu wollen (xyclOps).
deswegen hat er sich mal ein paar monate hingesetzt, schnell eine engine auf augenhöhe von rybka entwickelt und bietet diese - nun geleutert - gratis an.

.
[/quote]

as soon as there was any issue with xyclops...i immediately stopped, refunded the 11 users, and moved on...?
i did the right thing? and that was long ago...? is that all you have against Fire...trowing 2 year-old mud?? Pathetic!

what's your issue now with Fire Urs...?
it's clearly a Rybka clone...?
nonsense!
please provide just a 'tiny' bit of proof...
please please provide it...no matter how small...we're all waiting on the edge of our seat.
and please don't use the 'anyone with half a brain knows it' argument...that's insulting to everyone!
or perhaps, 'well the authors are remaining anonymous', ?? in such a 'fascist' environment, you expect the hated 'CLONERS'!! to come out?
get real!
change the environment?, yes and i'm sure you'll see them take credit!!

fact is:
you, Benno, Ingo, everyone have absolutely no proof whatsover!
it's despicable!

By Ingo Bauer Date 2010-06-01 06:47

[quote="Norman Schmidt"]
[quote="Urs Maier"]
paß auf Benno,

es ist ganz einfach: Norman Schmidt hat mittlerweile eingesehen, daß es nicht gut ankommt, mit mit clones geld verdienen zu wollen (xyclOps).
deswegen hat er sich mal ein paar monate hingesetzt, schnell eine engine auf augenhöhe von rybka entwickelt und bietet diese - nun geleutert - gratis an.

[/quote]

You name the enviroment, so this fora too, fascist and then you name some members in the same context.

I really believe that you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about!. Therefore I know what I have to think about you!

Ingo

By Jörg Oster Date 2010-06-01 09:05

+1 !!

By Frank Quisinsky Date 2010-06-01 09:52

Hallo Jörg,

und dennoch, auch das ist alles Zeitverschwendung.
Nicht böse Dir gegenüber gemeint und ganz sicher absolut OK was Ingo schreibt aber die Beschäftigung schon alleine mit dieser Person ist Zeitverschwendung.

Gruß
Frank

By Gerhard Sonnabend Date 2010-06-01 10:17

[quote="Frank Quisinsky"]
und dennoch, auch das ist alles Zeitverschwendung.
Nicht böse Dir gegenüber gemeint und ganz sicher absolut OK was Ingo schreibt
aber die Beschäftigung schon alleine mit dieser Person ist Zeitverschwendung.
[/quote]

Leider jedoch muss man feststellen, dass es hier einige
Leute gibt, welche diesen Penner ernst nehmen, sein
Machwerk unterstützen und sich auch noch dafür bedanken.

Viele Grüsse,
G.S.

By Michael Waesch Date 2010-06-01 10:25

[quote="Gerhard Sonnabend"]
Leider jedoch muss man feststellen, dass es hier einige
Leute gibt, welche diesen Penner ernst nehmen, sein
Machwerk unterstützen und sich auch noch dafür bedanken.
[/quote]

Kein Kommentar.

Mike

By Daniel Mehrmann (CSS-Forum) Date 2010-06-01 10:58

Hallo Gerhard

[quote="Gerhard Sonnabend"]Leider jedoch muss man feststellen, dass es hier einige
Leute gibt, welche diesen Penner ernst nehmen, sein
Machwerk unterstützen und sich auch noch dafür bedanken.[/quote]

Bitte achte in Zukunft auf auf deine Wortwahl. Auch in agressiven Diskussionen
sollte man die Netiquette nicht vergessen und auf Anstand und Sachlichkeit achten.

Gruß
Daniel

By Peter Martan Date 2010-06-01 10:21

Hallo Ingo!

Ich kann gut verstehen, dass du das so nicht stehen lassen kannst und überhaupt Norman Schmidt hier lieber nicht hättest. Ich kenne ihn auch nicht wirklich gut, hatte nur schon hin und wieder das eine oder andere Mail mit ihm gewechselt und glaube einfach nicht, dass er sich über die Tragweite dessen, was er, auch schon "in Fahrt" alles beisteuert, klar war, schließlich flame wars, wie wir sie ja hier normaler Weise nicht wirklich haben, anderweitig gewöhnt.
Ich hab ihn deshalb, wie du weiter oben lesen kannst, auch schon aufgefordert, das mit der 'fascist' environment klarzustellen.
Ich persönlich würde nicht auf einer Entschuldigung bestehen, weil ich es nicht so verstanden habe, dass er hier wirklich jemanden einen Faschisten nennt.
Beachte auch die Anführungszeichen in seinem letzten posting, das du ja zitierst, macht vielleicht doch auch irgendwie einen Unterschied.
Ich finde halt, nachdem er einer der wenigen, wenn nicht der Einzige ist, der namentlich für die Beschäftigung mit den Ippo- sourcen einsteht, sollte man ihn als Ansprechpartner nicht einfach ablehnen, auch wenn man gegen die Sache als solche ist.
Ich hab's da natürlich leichter, weil ich kein Problem mit den Klonen an sich habe, höchstens mit dem Klauen an sich, was eben auch vor Allem ad personam einen Unterschied macht.
Wenn ich dir in der letzten Zeit ungerechter Weise den Vorwurf gemacht hab, politisch nicht alles bedacht zu haben in einem posting von dir, lass die Sache als solche vielleicht jetzt erst recht auch nicht politischer werden, als sie ohnehin schon ist.

By Norman Schmidt Date 2010-05-31 22:57 Edited 2010-05-31 23:01

[quote="Benno Hartwig"]

>> Do you know results in the net, which support this thesis?

[quote="Norman Schmidt"]there were approx. 100 Decembrists imvolved that did the 'beta' testing...[/quote]
Looking at your posting I understood: You do not know an URL, where significant strength-increase is documentated.

Pity. I hoped, leastwise you would know one.

I'll take a look at 1.3.
Thinking about your optimism I hope, that this version, different from former ones, comes with an identifiable chess-relevant progression.

Benno

PS:
Who is Bruno?
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=%22who+is+bruno%22&btnG=Suche&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
[/quote]

you know Bruno, Urs, and others with the same mentality-
i don't really give a damn what you think...it's nonsense...
it's clear that you and many others here are simply corrupt old school Rybka fanatic 'big boys' who run a couple tournaments once in awhile and decide you deserve a Nobel prize in chess engine science...!?

it's really quite pitifull...must you all be so arrogant, beligerent, and vindictive!?
reminds me of fascism! (and believe me i know that's a real sensitive spot for Germans)
but:
'if it walks like a duck, has feathers, and quacks...it's probably a freakin' duck!

By Urs Maier Date 2010-06-01 01:35

Zitat:

'if it walks like a duck, has feathers, and quacks...it's probably a freakin' duck!

if the eval is simlar to rybka, the search nearly the same and the move ordering identical, it's probably simply rybka!

it's nearly impossible to write a chessengine from scratch, that behaves extremely similar like some other engine, but on the other hand it's very easy to modify an existing (or reverse engeneered) code to behave very different - even without a big loss of playing strength.

fire(bird) and the other clones behave and play very much like rybka. there wasn't even much attempt (or knowledge) to hide it.
as a CC player I am pretty familiar with all major engines. please name one other couple of engines to which above mentioned phenomenon aplies.

By Norman Schmidt Date 2010-06-01 01:48 Edited 2010-06-01 01:56

[quote="Urs Maier"]
if the eval is simlar to rybka, the search nearly the same and the move ordering identical, it's probably simply rybka!
[/quote]

oh? the eval is simlar to rybka, the search nearly the same and the move ordering identical...
i didn't know that...are you sure? what i see is completely different!
sorry...complete bullshit and you know it!
"it's probably simply rybka"...?!! yes...ok you win...i'm totally convinced! (not!)

[quote="Urs Maier"]
it's nearly impossible to write a chessengine from scratch, that behaves extremely similar like some other engine, but on the other hand it's very easy to modify an existing (or reverse engeneered) code to behave very different - even without a big loss of playing strength.
[/quote]

damn---sorry had no idea you were such an expert, with so much programming experience! especially concerning modification of reverse-engineered source code...
apparently it's 'very easy'! ok...i've learned something here! apparently, according to Urs...it's easy

wait! why isn't done more often?...i'll tell you: because it's very difficult!

[quote="Urs Maier"]
fire(bird) and the other clones behave and play very much like rybka. there wasn't even much attempt (or knowledge) to hide it.
[/quote]

they behave the same...? wow...well, i certainly havent seen that...most usrs see them as very very different...please take your head out of the sand!
but ok, gosh! you got me here! i admit...if they appear to someone blind...they must be clones!

[quote="Urs Maier"]
as a CC player I am pretty familiar with all major engines. please name one other couple of engines to which above mentioned phenomenon aplies.
[/quote]

sorry had no idea you were a CC player!? wow, very impressed now...
i take back everything i said...clearly anything you say must be true, and is absolutely irrefutable!

By Urs Maier Date 2010-06-01 01:54 Edited 2010-06-01 01:57

Zitat:

apparently it's 'very easy'! ok...i've learned something here! apparently, according to Urs...it's easy
wait! why isn't done more often?...i'll tell you: because it's very difficult!

what is very difficult for you? modify existing readable code? how much harder must it be to write a chess engine on your own?

By Norman Schmidt Date 2010-06-01 02:15 Edited 2010-06-01 02:21

[quote="Urs Maier"]
what is very difficult for you? modify existing readable code? how much harder must it be to write a chess engine on your own?

[/quote]

both the same...i simply chose to stand on the shoulders of all who came before me, and push forward (saves a lot of time!)
that's how software development works...there is not 1 program that exists today that does not benefit and borrow from all the ones before!

hey! there are 2 types of people...the ones that stand on the sideline, whimpering and complaining...(i.e. losers!)
and others who jump in, do something and make a change!

but, apparently the CSS (Big Boys) have decided that the only worthwhile program is one that literally flows off it's authors hands like a work of 'art'?
i.e. like a Hemmingway novel flowing off his fingertips at a typewriter in Cuba!

fine...have fun with that!
meanwhile, academic and scientific pursuit will progress without you, while you-all stick you heads in the sand and pretend non 100%-pure works of art don't count or don't exist!

ok you're choice!

By Urs Maier Date 2010-06-01 02:18 Edited 2010-06-01 02:25

fine, that you start admitting you couldn't create anything new. it's not new and it's not better.

it's even worse/buggier!!!

great work Norman!

By Norman Schmidt Date 2010-06-01 02:23 Edited 2010-06-01 02:27

[quote="Urs Maier"]

fine, that you start admitting you couldn't create anything new. it's not new and it's not better.

[/quote]

tell that to the 500-1000 people that download Fire each day
they will simply laugh...

but you are entitled to your 'perception'...(i simply suggest you take you head out of the sand)
thanks for conversing with me!
Norm

By Norman Schmidt Date 2010-06-01 02:48 Edited 2010-06-01 02:56

[quote="Urs Maier"]

fine, that you start admitting you couldn't create anything new. it's not new and it's not better.

it's even worse/buggier!!!

great work Norman!
[/quote]

yes so buggy that Chessultent software (Dr. Alexander Schmidt) and i have agreed to build Fire 1.3 cluster version...using the software he has developed over the past 3 years...?
fire is so buggy that (a company that shall remain unnamed at this point) in UAE has agreed with me to host Fire, and contracted Intel to build a $1,000,000.00 1024 core server hosted in the UAE with Fire running, on it...accessible to all via internet?

ok Urs...
whatever you say!

what is your motivation here Urs?
it simply seems like a desperate attempt to discredit me in any manner you can find?

they are idiots?...but you see everything clearly (with you head in the sand!?)
amazing! i had no idea that the CSS had such hidden (or unrecognized) technical expertise!

Friendly? regards!?
Norm

By Urs Maier Date 2010-06-01 02:52

what a freakshow! and you are the main actor

By Norman Schmidt Date 2010-06-01 02:57 Edited 2010-06-01 03:07

ok good...
finally you have nothing of substance to say, and need to resort to personal insults...

thanks for the mature 'discussion'!?

keep trying ! you're very good at perpetuating the 'Big Boys' beligerent, insulting and arrogant mentality...
soon, who knows?, maybe you can eventually become one of the 'boys'? good luck!

Hint- run a tournament once in awhile and report the results in an authoratative ratings list...!!
adopt an attitude like you deserve the Nobel Science Prize...

(hey you're half way there!)

By Michael Waesch Date 2010-06-01 09:38

It´s a complete futile enterprise to argue with people who simply don´t want to know. No matter what you tell them about something they don´t like, will simply get pushed away, in order to uphold their often strange views. And all you can get out by arguing with them is: being insulted and being dragged down to their loud and low level. And since the average visitor to this forum is somewhat disgusted by such sort of "discussion", my advice is: Just create your own Thread about Fire and describe what achievements have been accomplished, which bugs have been eliminated, what is being planned for the future and so on. This will show the interested people the things they can expect from Fire in the future. Just go for the people you really want to adress to and don´t go into verbal duels with people who will stay on the Rybka-ship no matter what - and even stick to it when it is clearly sinking. Why try to "rescue" them? They don´t want to be rescued!

Mike

By Daniel Mehrmann (CSS-Forum) Date 2010-06-01 10:23

Hello Norman,

please come down ! It's been not okay if you use such words like "fascist"
or other agressiv stuff in your messages. You should know that the german history
has some problems with it.

Okay, i understand that you're feel personal attacked on some ways, but
that's no reasons for your messages anyway.

Best,
Daniel
(Moderation)

By Benno Hartwig Date 2010-06-01 08:15

[quote="Norman Schmidt"]i don't really give a damn what you think...it's nonsense...
it's clear that you and many others here are simply corrupt old school Rybka fanatic 'big boys' ...

'if it walks like a duck, has feathers, and quacks...it's probably a freakin' duck![/quote]
Yes, this last statement of you was correct.
And we produced a nice and informative demonstration of this during our our talk. (readers will decide)

Benno

By Peter Martan Date 2010-06-01 09:47

[quote="Norman Schmidt"]
you know Bruno, Urs, and others with the same mentality-
i don't really give a damn what you think...it's nonsense...
it's clear that you and many others here are simply corrupt old school Rybka fanatic 'big boys' who run a couple tournaments once in awhile and decide you deserve a Nobel prize in chess engine science...!?

it's really quite pitifull...must you all be so arrogant, beligerent, and vindictive!?
reminds me of fascism! (and believe me i know that's a real sensitive spot for Germans)
[/quote]

Dear Norm!
I did like to read news from you hear at CSS forum, a Schmidt- Schmidt cluster with UEA support could be real fun, I guess.

But I don't like to read things like the ones above. Even if you think you know, what you write about fascism and that it is a sensitive spot for Germans, you don't know at all, what it means to some of us, if not to all of us you're dealing with in this thread.
I know, you did'nt mean to call anybody here a fascist, so I don't feel insulted as for me personally speaking, but can you imagine, somebody could think so?
If you'ld simply make it clear it was not that you meant, I guess it would be much easier for you, for the others and for the case itself, to go on discussing it in a cool manner and as for the facts themselves.
Flamewars are not the way to explain things which aren't so easy to understand, even knowing the facts, which in cases like that, no one really knows.
We all have to count on assumptions as for Ippolit, Rybka, Fruit and so on. Please don't you make the same mistake as others do, to blame the other ones beeing not of your opinion only. We all would like to know better, but the way to get to know, is not to insult each others.
By the way, thanks for Fire.