Not logged inCSS-Forum
Forum CSS-Online Help Search Login
CSS-Shop Impressum Datenschutz
Up Topic Hauptforen / CSS-Forum / Harte Nuß!!
- - By Anton Stadlhofer Date 2009-11-01 15:29
Hallo

Welche Schachengine findet den Lösungszug Lb6!! - bei so wenigen Figuren sollte das
doch kein Problem sein - oder doch....

[Event "Lb6"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1983.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Soukup Bardon, B."]
[Black "_"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "1983.??.??"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2000.10.30"]



1. Lb6!+ Sxb6 2. Sd6! Sd8 3. Kh2! f4 4. Kg2 g4 5. Kg1 1-0

lg    Anton
Parent - - By Ingo Bauer Date 2009-11-01 15:38
Hallo


n1N5/B1N5/2n5/k4pp1/p6p/P6K/8/8 w - -

Engine: Deep Shredder 12 x64 (4096 MB)
by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

26/41  0:08   +0.01    1.Nxa8 Nxa7 2.Nxa7 Ka6 3.Nc8 Kb7
                       4.Nab6 Kc7 5.Kh2 f4 6.Kg2 Kb7 7.Kh3 f3
                       8.Nc4 Kxc8 9.Ne5 f2 10.Kg2 Kc7
                       11.Kxf2 Kd6 12.Nf3 Kc5 13.Kg2 (34.391.687) 4082
                       SB:353.517

27/39  0:10   +0.01    1.Nxa8 Nxa7 2.Nxa7 Ka6 3.Nc8 Kb7
                       4.Nab6 Kc7 5.Kh2 f4 6.Kg2 Kb7 7.Kh3 f3
                       8.Nc4 Kxc8 9.Ne5 f2 10.Kg2 Kc7
                       11.Kxf2 Kd6 12.Nf3 Kc5 13.Kg2 h3+
                       14.Kxh3 (43.011.444) 4084 SB:428.684

27/46  0:20   +M13     1.Bb6+ Nxb6 2.Nd6 Nd8 3.Kh2 g4 4.Kg2 f4
                       5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 f2 8.Kxf2 h2
                       9.Kg2 g3 10.Kh1 g2+ 11.Kxh2 g1Q+
                       12.Kxg1 Nd5 13.Nc4+ (82.153.180) 4079
                       SB:905.054

...

32/46  0:37   +M13     1.Bb6+ Nxb6 2.Nd6 Nd8 3.Kh2 g4 4.Kg2 f4
                       5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 f2 8.Kxf2 h2
                       9.Kg2 g3 10.Kh1 g2+ 11.Kxh2 g1Q+
                       12.Kxg1 Nd5 13.Nc4+ (147.449.537) 3953
                       SB:1.073.337

best move: Ba7-b6 time: 0:38.907 min  n/s: 3.937.102  CPU 390.0%   n/s(1CPU): 1.009.513  nodes: 153.054.851 SB: 1.082.373


Gruß
Ingo
Parent - - By Peter Martan Date 2009-11-01 17:15
Superleistung von Shredder, Ingo!
Tatsächlich mit Abstand das Beste auf weiter Flur in dieser Aufgabe.
Parent - - By Günter Müller Date 2009-11-01 17:54
Hallo

Fritz 12 auf AMD 2.4GHz 512MB findet den Zug ab Tiefe=23/44 2072 kN/s
(USB Stick 5 men TBS)

n1N5/B1N5/2n5/k4pp1/p6p/P6K/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Fritz 12:

1. +-  (#13): 1.Bb6+ Nxb6 2.Nd6 Nd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4 5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxg2 f1Q+ 12.Kxf1 Nc4 13.Nxc4#
2. +/-  (1.20): 1.Nxa8 Nxa7 2.Nxa7 Ka6 3.Nc8 Kb7 4.Nab6 Kc7 5.Kg2 f4 6.Kg1 Kb7 7.Kh1 h3 8.Kh2 g4 9.Nd5 Kxc8 10.Nxf4 Kc7 11.Nd3 Kd6 12.Nf2 g3+ 13.Kxg3
3. =  (0.00): 1.Nd5 Nxa7 2.Nxa7 f4 3.Kg4 Nb6 4.Nc6+ Kb5 5.Nxb6 Kxb6 6.Nd4 Kc5 7.Nf3 Kc4 8.Nd2+ Kd3 9.Nf3
4. =  (0.00): 1.Ne6 Nxa7 2.Nxa7 Nb6 3.Nc6+ Kb5 4.Ncd4+ Kc4 5.Nxf5 Kb3 6.Nc5+ Ka2 7.Kg4 Kxa3 8.Nxa4 Nxa4 9.Nxh4
5. =/+  (-0.60): 1.Ne8 Nxa7 2.Nxa7 Kb6 3.Nc8+ Kc5 4.Nf6 Nc7 5.Nd7+ Kd5 6.Ndb6+ Ke5 7.Nd7+ Ke6 8.Nc5+ Kf6 9.Nd6 Nd5 10.Nxa4 Nf4+ 11.Kh2 g4 12.Nc4 g3+ 13.Kg1 h3 14.Nc3 Ke6 15.a4 Nd5
6. =/+  (-0.68): 1.Bb8 Nxb8 2.Nxa8 Nc6 3.Nc7 Nd4 4.Ne7 Kb6 5.Ncd5+ Kc5 6.Nc3 Kd6 7.Ng6 Nf3 8.Nxa4 g4+ 9.Kg2 h3+ 10.Kh1 g3 11.Nf4 Ng5 12.Nc3 Ke5 13.Ng6+ Kf6 14.Nf4
7. -+  (-2.14): 1.Be3 Nxc7 2.Bxg5 Nb5 3.Ne7 Ne5 4.Bf6 Nd3 5.Nxf5 Nxa3 6.Ne3 Kb5 7.Be7 Nc5 8.Kxh4 Nb1 9.Nc2 Nc3 10.Na3+ Kc6 11.Bf6 N5e4 12.Bd4 Kb7
8. -+  (-2.15): 1.Ne7 Nxa7 2.Nxa8 Nb5 3.Nxf5 Nxa3 4.Ne3 Nb1 5.Nc7 Kb6 6.Ne6 Nd2 7.Nxg5 a3 8.Kxh4 a2 9.Nc2 Nb3 10.Kg4 Nd4 11.Na1 Kb5 12.Kf4 Kb4
9. -+  (-2.80): 1.Nb5 Kxb5 2.Nd6+ Ka6 3.Bc5 Nb6 4.Nxf5 Nc4 5.Kg2 Kb5 6.Bf8 Kb6 7.Kh3 N4e5 8.Kg2
10. -+  (-3.57): 1.Bg1 Nxc7 2.Bb6+ Ka6 3.Bxc7 Kb7 4.Bf4 gxf4 5.Nd6+ Kb6 6.Nc4+ Kb5 7.Nd2 Nd4 8.Kxh4 Kc5 9.Kg5 f3 10.Kf4 f2 11.Kg3 Nb5 12.Kxf2 Nxa3 13.Ke2 Nc4 14.Nf3
11. -+  (-3.57): 1.Bc5 Nxc7 2.Bb6+ Ka6 3.Bxc7 Kb7 4.Bf4 gxf4 5.Nd6+ Kb6 6.Nc4+ Kb5 7.Nd2 Nd4 8.Kxh4 Kc5 9.Kg5 f3 10.Kf4 f2 11.Kg3 Nb5 12.Kxf2 Nxa3 13.Ke2 Nc4 14.Nf3
12. -+  (-3.57): 1.Bf2 Nxc7 2.Bb6+ Ka6 3.Bxc7 Kb7 4.Bf4 gxf4 5.Nd6+ Kb6 6.Nc4+ Kb5 7.Nd2 Nd4 8.Kxh4 Kc5 9.Kg5 f3 10.Kf4 f2 11.Kg3 Nb5 12.Kxf2 Nxa3 13.Ke2 Nc4 14.Nf3
13. -+  (-3.57): 1.Bd4 Nxc7 2.Bb6+ Ka6 3.Bxc7 Kb7 4.Bf4 gxf4 5.Nd6+ Kb6 6.Nc4+ Kb5 7.Nd2 Nd4 8.Kxh4 Kc5 9.Kg5 f3 10.Kf4 f2 11.Kg3 Nb5 12.Kxf2 Nxa3 13.Ke2 Nc4 14.Nf3
14. -+  (-3.59): 1.Nd6 Nxc7 2.Bg1 Ne6 3.Nxf5 Nf4+ 4.Kh2 Ne5 5.Kh1 Kb5 6.Bd4 Nf3 7.Be3 Kc4 8.Bxf4 gxf4 9.Kg2 Ne5 10.Nxh4 Kb3 11.Kf2 Kxa3 12.Ng2 Nd3+ 13.Ke2

( 01.11.2009)
Parent - - By Günter Müller Date 2009-11-01 18:10
Die schnellste Engine;

n1N5/B1N5/2n5/k4pp1/p6p/P6K/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by ChestUCI Ver.5.1:

1.Bb6+
  +-  (#13)   Depth: 13/13   00:00:47  6481kN
1.Bb6+ Nxb6 2.Nd6 Nd8 3.Kh2 g4 4.Kg2 h3+ 5.Kg3 f4+ 6.Kh2 f3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxf2 g1Q+ 12.Kxg1 Nb7 13.Nxb7#
  +-  (#13)   Depth: 13/13   00:00:47  7422kN

(01.11.2009)
Parent - By Peter Martan Date 2009-11-01 18:24
Ich hab hier noch eine schnellere:

Lösung gefunden bei folgenden Parametern: Fluchtfelder: 0, Drohtiefe: 0    Lösezeit:  01,12 s

1.La7-b6 Sa8-b6 2.Sc8-d6 Sc6-d8 3.Kh3-h2 Bf5-f4 4.Kh2-g2 Bg5-g4 5.Kg2-g1 Bf4-f3 6.Kg1-f2 Bh4-h3 7.Kf2-g3 Bf3-f2 8.Kg3-f2 Bh3-h2 9.Kf2-g2 Bg4-g3 10.Kg2-h1 Bg3-g2 11.Kh1-g2 h2-h1D 12.Kg2-h1 Sd8-c6 13.Sd6-b7#

Der ganze Variantenbaum, den Gustav 3.1 bei sowas dann auch immer noch in unnachahmlich übersichtlicher Manier notiert, würde hier nicht herpassen.
Parent - By Peter Martan Date 2009-11-01 17:56
DS11 konnte es auch schon, wenn auch nicht ganz so schnell:

n1N5/B1N5/2n5/k4pp1/p6p/P6K/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Deep Shredder 11 UCI:

1.Sxa8 Sxa7
  +-  (2.01)   Tiefe: 6/6   00:00:00  8kN
...
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 g4 4.Kg2 h3+ 5.Kg3 f4+ 6.Kh2 f3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxg2
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 29/54   00:02:23  553mN, tb=163409
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 g4 4.Kg2 h3+ 5.Kg3 f4+ 6.Kh2 f3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxg2
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 30/40   00:02:25  562mN, tb=163696

Etwas flotter, vor allem aber schon in Tiefe 22, mit Spielstil solid:

n1N5/B1N5/2n5/k4pp1/p6p/P6K/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Deep Shredder 11 UCIS:

1.Sxa8 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Ka6 3.Sc8 Ka5
  +-  (2.01)   Tiefe: 6/9   00:00:00  7kN
...
1.Sxa8 Sxa7
  +/-  (0.94)   Tiefe: 22/49   00:00:24  91805kN, tb=9278
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 22/49   00:01:27  420mN, tb=9371
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4 5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 23/39   00:01:31  445mN, tb=9384
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4 5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxf2
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 24/41   00:01:36  473mN, tb=9395
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4 5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxf2
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 25/42   00:01:46  522mN, tb=9549
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4 5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxf2
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 26/40   00:01:56  569mN, tb=9801
1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4 5.Kg1 f3 6.Kf2 h3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxf2 g1D+ 12.Kxg1 Sa8 13.Sc4#
  +-  (#13)   Tiefe: 27/49   00:02:11  639mN, tb=10462

Die WM- Edition hingegen schon eine ganze Nummer schneller:

n1N5/B1N5/2n5/k4pp1/p6p/P6K/8/8 w - -

Engine: Shredder WM-Edition (1024 MB)
von Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

18/49  0:01   +0.71    1.Sxa8 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Ka6 3.Sc8 Kb7
                       4.Scb6 Kb8 5.Kg2 f4 6.Kh3 f3 7.Sd7+ Kxa8
                       8.Se5 f2 9.Kg2 Kb7 10.Kxf2 Kb6
                       11.Kf3 Kc5 12.Ke4 h3 13.Sf3 (4.443.545) 3058
                       SB:45.817

...

23/40  0:06   +0.50    1.Sxa8 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Ka6 3.Sc8 Kb7
                       4.Scb6 Kb8 5.Kg2 Kb7 6.Kh2 f4 7.Kg2 Kb8 (20.249.023) 3020
                       SB:63.819

23/99  0:18   +M13     1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4
                       5.Kg1 h3 6.Kh2 (58.611.232) 3107
                       SB:145.247

24/52  0:19   +M13     1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4
                       5.Kg1 h3 6.Kh2 (61.244.471) 3120
                       SB:148.198
Parent - - By Hermann Hartl Date 2009-11-01 16:46
Hallo,
wie bei vielen solcher Stellungen ist hier der Mehrvariantenmodus sinnvoll

Zappa Mexiko auf einem Tread mit 1024MB HT:

16   0:35    +M13   1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 f4 4.Kg2 g4 5.Kg1 h3 6.Kh2 f3 7.Kg3 f2 8.Kxf2 h2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kh1 g2+ 11.Kxh2 g1D+ 12.Kxg1 Sd7 13.Sc4+ (29.130.715) 824  TB:317
16   0:41   +1.01   1.Sxa8 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Ka6 3.Sc8 Kb7 4.Scb6 Ka7 5.Kg2 f4 6.Sd7 Kxa8 7.Se5 Ka7 8.Kh3 Kb6 9.Kg4 Kc5 10.Kxg5 Kd4 11.Kxf4 (34.539.387) 829  TB:371
16   0:37   +0.01   1.Se6 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Sb6 3.Sc6+ Kb5 4.Scd4+ Kc4 5.Sxf5 Kb3 6.Sxg5 Sc4 7.Sd4+ Kxa3 8.Kxh4 Kb4 9.Kg3 (31.096.679) 822  TB:358
16   0:38   -1.11   1.Lb8 Sxb8 2.Sxa8 Sc6 3.Sc7 Sd4 4.Se7 Sc2 5.Se6 Sxa3 6.Sxf5 Sc4 7.Sxg5 a3 8.Kxh4 (31.445.612) 823  TB:362
16   0:39   -1.27   1.Se7 Sxa7 2.Se6 Sb5 3.Sxf5 Sxa3 4.Se3 Kb4 5.Sxg5 Sb6 6.Kxh4 Sac4 7.Sxc4 Sxc4 (32.793.478) 824  TB:367
16   0:40   -2.52   1.Lf2 Sxc7 2.Lb6+ Ka6 3.Lxc7 Kb7 4.Lf4 gxf4 5.Sd6+ Kb6 6.Sxf5 Kc5 7.Sxh4 Kd5 8.Sg6 Ke4 9.Kg2 Sd4 10.Sxf4 Kxf4 (33.674.262) 828  TB:368
16   0:41   -3.05   1.Sd6 Sxc7 2.Lg1 Se5 3.Sxf5 Se6 4.Le3 Sc4 5.Lc1 Kb5 6.Kg4 Kc6 7.Se7+ (34.596.310) 829  TB:371
16   0:44   -3.06   1.Lc5 Sxc7 2.Lb6+ Ka6 3.Lxc7 Kb7 4.Lf4 gxf4 5.Sd6+ Kb6 6.Sxf5 Kc5 7.Sxh4 Kd5 8.Sf3 Se5 9.Sg5 Kc4 10.Kg2 Kb3 11.Se6 (37.508.453) 837  TB:473
16   0:41   -6.64   1.Kg2 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Sxc7 3.Sc6+ Ka6 4.Sd4 Sb5 5.Sxf5 Sxa3 6.Se3 Kb7 7.Kh3 Kc6 (34.451.833) 829  TB:371
Bester Zug: La7-b6 Zeit: 0:48.719 min  K/s: 852.756  Knoten: 40.349.303 TB: 491

Grüße
Parent - By Hermann Hartl Date 2009-11-01 16:59
Shredder auf 1Tread 1024 MB HT:

23   1:33    +M13   1.Lb6+ Sxb6 2.Sd6 Sd8 3.Kh2 g4 4.Kg2 h3+ 5.Kg3 f4+ 6.Kh2 f3 7.Kg3 h2 8.Kxh2 f2 9.Kg2 g3 10.Kf1 g2+ 11.Kxg2 f1D+ 12.Kxf1 Sc4 13.Sxc4+ (86.406.993) 923  SB:1.075.331
23   1:42   +1.50   1.Sxa8 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Ka6 3.Sc8 Kb7 4.Scb6 f4 5.Kg4 f3 6.Kxf3 h3 7.Kf2 g4 8.Kg3 Kb8 9.Kh2 Kb7 10.Sc4 Kxa8 11.Se5 Ka7 12.Sxg4 Kb7 13.Sf6 Kc6 14.Se4 (92.233.869) 904  SB:1.343.776
23   1:43   -0.01   1.Se6 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Sb6 3.Sxg5 Sc4 4.Sc6+ Kb6 5.Sb4 Sxa3 6.Sd5+ Kc6 7.Sc3 Sc4 8.Sxa4 Se5 9.Se6 Kd7 10.Sd4 f4 11.Sc5+ Kd6 12.Sb7+ Kd5 13.Sd6 Kxd4 14.Kxh4 (94.070.501) 905  SB:1.364.651
23   1:46   -0.01   1.Sd5 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Sb6 3.Sc3 Ka6 4.Sc6 Sc4 5.Sd4 Sxa3 6.Sxa4 Sc4 7.Sc5+ Kb6 8.Sd7+ Ka5 9.Sxf5 Kb5 10.Se5 Sxe5 11.Sxh4 (96.764.003) 905  SB:1.388.669
23   2:07   -0.20   1.Se8 Sxa7 2.Sxa7 Kb6 3.Sc8+ Kc5 4.Sa7 Sb6 5.Sg7 Sc4 6.Se6+ Kb6 7.Sc8+ Ka5 8.Sxg5 (116.598.230) 913  SB:1.778.467
23   2:12   -0.31   1.Lb8 Sxb8 2.Sxa8 Sc6 3.Sc7 Sd4 4.Se7 Kb6 5.Scd5+ Kc5 6.Se3 f4 7.Sd1 Sc2 8.Sf5 Sxa3 9.Sc3 Sc4 10.Kg4 a3 11.Kxg5 f3 12.Se4+ Kb6 13.Sd4 a2 14.Sb3 (120.950.825) 915  SB:1.814.422
23   2:13   -1.47   1.Se7 Sxe7 2.Sxa8 Ka6 3.Le3 Sg6 4.Sc7+ Kb7 5.Sd5 g4+ 6.Kg2 Kc6 7.Sb4+ Kd6 8.Sd3 Kd5 9.Lg5 Kd4 10.Sb2 h3+ 11.Kh2 Se5 12.Lf6 f4 13.Sxa4 Kd3 (122.426.453) 915  SB:1.824.216
23   2:17   -1.73   1.Le3 Sxc7 2.Lxg5 Se6 3.Kxh4 Scd4 4.Le7 Kb5 5.Sd6+ Kc6 6.Sc4 Se2 7.Lb4 S2f4 8.Kg3 Sd5 9.Se5+ Kb5 10.Ld6 Sg5 11.Lb8 Se4+ 12.Kf3 Sd2+ 13.Ke2 Sc4 14.Sxc4 (126.306.160) 916  SB:1.863.271
23   2:22   -3.12   1.Sb5 Kxb5 2.Sd6+ Ka6 3.Lc5 Sc7 4.Sxf5 Sd5 5.Se3 Sf6 6.Lf8 Kb5 7.Lg7 Se4 8.Kg4 Sd8 9.Kf5 Sd6+ 10.Kg6 Sc4 11.Sd1 h3 (130.596.337) 916  SB:1.893.816
22   1:32   -3.99   1.Lc5 Sxc7 2.Lb6+ Ka6 3.Lxc7 Kb7 4.Lf4 gxf4 5.Sd6+ Kb6 6.Sc4+ Kb5 7.Sd2 Kc5 8.Kxh4 Sd4 9.Kh3 Sc2 10.Sb1 Kc4 11.Kg2 Kb3 12.Sd2+ Kxa3 13.Kf3 Kb2 14.Sc4+ (85.477.524) 922  SB:1.072.651
22   1:32   -3.99   1.Lf2 Sxc7 2.Lb6+ Ka6 3.Lxc7 Kb7 4.Lf4 gxf4 5.Sd6+ Kb6 6.Sc4+ Kb5 7.Sd2 Kc5 8.Kxh4 Sd4 9.Kh3 Sc2 10.Sb1 Kc4 11.Kg2 Kb3 12.Sd2+ Kxa3 13.Kf3 Kb2 14.Sc4+ (85.779.850) 922  SB:1.073.136
Bester Zug: La7-b6 Zeit: 2:58.015 min  K/s: 921.559  CPU 99.6%   K/s(1CPU): 925.260  Knoten: 164.051.436 SB: 2.201.065

Hermann
Parent - By Peter Martan Date 2009-11-01 17:11
Richtig beobachtet, Hermann!
An dieser Stellung brauchen allerdings die meisten, die ich probiert hab über 10 Varianten dazu, da ist Zappa mit 9 noch gut.
Up Topic Hauptforen / CSS-Forum / Harte Nuß!!

Powered by mwForum 2.29.3 © 1999-2014 Markus Wichitill